I am drinking delicious coffee. I put too much creamer into it and it tastes yummy and sweet. Which probably means the next cup should have significantly less creamer.
Critique from Gordon: I like it, but yeah maybe less crazy vengeance and more “This kinda shit needs to not happen!” Must make more of “This kinda shit needs to not happen” today.
Character motivation is often overlooked, and it’s so important to the story, because sometimes simply changing a word or two can present the novel in an entirely different light. A quest for vengeance, while passionate, is also ultimately selfish. For people to be swept up in it, you make have to lay out a lot of groundwork. A writer had to show the character’s life prior to injury, then wreck it completely and savagely, then lead the character to the inevitable conclusion - the man who killed Domingo Montoya must die and Domingo’s son will make it happen. You have to know the character intimately and live with them through that injury.
A quest to prevent is a different story. In this case, we still have the groundwork, although less of it, and the injury, but the character takes on the burden of protecting the rest of the people from the villain. He or she are driven by an unselfish desire to keep others from harm rather than hurting the person responsible for their pain.
Looking at Count of Monte Cristo, which is definitely a revenge quest, it starts with a large chunk of narrative prior to Dantes being locked up. It’s boring. Most people admit that it’s boring and as much as I like Dumas, I told the kids, “It gets good when he is imprisoned.”
It’s interesting how Gankuotsuou attempted to resolve this problem by dribbling the backstory into the series, but they also went off the deep end in the finale. In case you wondering, rocks fell and everyone died. Literally.
In Princess Bride, Inigo is a side character. His motivations are clear and strong, but I don’t know if it would carry him through the entire novel as a protagonist. I’ve ran into that problem with Andrea. While limited motivations were fine for her as a side character, when she became a protagonist, she had to be a well-rounded person. Even then, Anne hit us on the first major fight: it wasn’t personal enough. Despite all the time spent with Andrea, the attachment to her alone wasn’t enough to keep the reader engaged and on the edge of their seat. There had to be other motivation besides simple fear for her life.
I think for this current story quest for justice is a better fit. It’s more consistent with the character and while the crime is really awful and her attachment to murdered people is clear, vengeance alone is short-lived: it would end with the death of the murderer, and there are so many more people who need to be killed.
“You killed my father. Prepare to die.”
Uh, I feel brain dead this morning so… uh I’ll simply say: sounds awesome and I cannot wait to read it. You guys are brilliant and it’ll be good.
Now I’m off to the closest place with coffee as I’m all out. “Coffee. Coffee, now!” (PCU)
Inconceivable!
All this Princess Bride talk is making me want to re-watch the movie. So many good lines.
You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.
there are so many more people who need to be killed.
I do so love a little carnage with my romance, can’t wait to read this.
LOL That was my exact response, too.
Jennie Breeden agrees with you. That was almost word for word her exact response when asked why she was reading Magic Bleeds.
http://thedevilspanties.com/archives/6161
Haha. This reminds me of the following gem. (Someone sent me the link–I can’t imagine why.)
http://www.etsy.com/listing/77573358/people-i-want-to-punch-in-the-face
Maybe they’d be willing to make a slight change to read “People Who Need to be Killed.”
I have to say that I am most interested in the romance between Andrea and Raphael, so I’m eager to read the book to see if they work things out and get back together. I don’t know why, but Andrea isn’t all that interesting to me unless she is interacting with either Raphael or Kate. For me, she makes a good sidekick character, but she doesn’t stand out enough to be a main character and that is just my personal unprofessional not-trying-to-offend-anyone opinion. I adore Kate and all of her flaws as well as her strengths. I could easily see Jim in a book of his own; he’s fascinating too. I hope you plan at some point to write a book about Julie; there is so much depth in her character that it would take a whole book for her “coming of age”. You must have oodles of material you could put in since you’re raising tween/teen girls yourself; such as a scene where Julie has a meltdown about not being allowed to take a curling iron to gym class?
Take care and enjoy your Sunday.
I totally agree, there needs to be more murder – the bloodier the better
And while the ending to Gankutsuou was terrible, the rest of the series was great. Don’t you love all the moving, swirling patterns? XD
Also, watch Baccano! One of the best anime I’ve ever seen , and I’ve seen over a hundred XP
So little time, so many people to kill.
I completely understand your problem. Andrrea has been a side character with deep emotional scars. But she has to have s deeper motivation. Look at Puss in Boots. Very good characterzation in Shrek but one dimension and not very interesting in his own movie. So do andrea right. “My name is Andrea and you killed my father and now i will kill u ” make her better than this and at somepoint bring up whether her dad is still alive and protective of his cub.
Hmmm, pretty thoughtful reflections for a lazy Sunday morning. I get the feeling you are talking about Edge 4 not Gunmetal Magic here. I’m sure whoever dies and however they meet their demise, you will craft an emotionally rich tale. You’ll get the balance right. You nearly always do, even if you must do the dreaded revisions, and that is why your novels are such a satisfying read. Happy Sunday!
Can I just say I miss my old blue and red guy? This purple square dude makes me look like a manic zombie.
There is no pleasing everyone, hee. I wish gravatar would make cuter avatars.
Oh noes. Check now.
I wasn’t complaining, more laughing really. I mean, if you ask my kids, they will tell you that I do in fact look like a manic zombie, especially when I am tripping over the shoes I asked them to pick up three days ago!
Now they all look like happy grannies! Wheee!
Good points about the revenge theme. I have to say I’ve been really digging the tv show Revenge on ABC. It’s a cross of count of monte cristo and hamptons 90210, but it’s kept me interested and surprised. Looking forward to Andrea’s story. Even if it’s not in depth enough to get new readers in you at least know all of your established fan base will be blissed out.
I love revenge plots, and I even loved Le Comte de Monte-Cristo… One of my favorite revenge movies is Sleepers with De Niro,Dustin Hoffman, Brad Pitt and Kevin Bacon.
Yup, all that threatening with body count rising made me want that book even more. Great post,Ilona!
On my first year of law study, I did research paper on history of punishment focusing on talion law. It was was interesting to learn how often revenge was interpreted as justice. And that’s what I find so appealing in these kind of plots. It always involve strong emotions,moral dilemmas,and carnage…all that great stuff.
Hmm…you ever had one of those strange moments when avatar looks exactly like you…?
“…and there are so many more people who need to be killed.” Boy if I had a nickle for every time I’ve said that. Great post and very informative. I think justice is something that is a very deeply held concept for Andrea. Along with structure and security I think justice is one of the things that attracted her to the Order. I also think the Order’s lack of true honor and dedication to real justice is what ruined her career and her faith in them. There’s a TON of depth in all of that. I’m really looking forward to this book. I am very fond of Andrea. I am drawn to characters that truly struggle with and own their choices.
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Maybe it could be rotating Avatar-o-rama! My new avatar has glasses, which is perfect since I’m getting used to my new glasses after years of sneering at my poor friends and associates who were stuck with them. Chickens coming home to roost and all that. For a while this morning everyone’s generated avatars where from Family guy? Then we went back to the shape guys.
Not being a student of literature, I enjoy reading how you discuss different types of stories, and their situations. Thanks for helping me learn more about it.
Oy! Yet another avatar. My head’s gettin’ all spinny.
Ins’t justice what you are supposed to strive for and leave revenge alone? Quests for revenge always lead to more destruction and tales of hubris. I just hope that Raphael discovers that Karma really is a bitch and Andrea makes him suffer for that stunt he pulled in her office. Gravelling on his knees in front of the whole whole pack may not be enough to get him back in my good graces.
Andrea is probably my favorite supporting character from the Kate books, and despite her fixation on revenge, we know that she believes in justice because of the work she did and the lengths she went to to keep doing it. I can’t wait to see how her own story turns out. I re-read that first chapter snippet weekly.
And I, like another reader above, would like to see Raphael grovel for being an absolute ass. I wonder if Aunt B is tempted to smack some sense into him.
“And I, like another reader above, would like to see Raphael grovel for being an absolute ass.”
YES! I’m so into grovelling, and Raphael is due for a big-time belly crawl. Definitely needs to be taken down a peg. . . or six.
I watched Gankutsuou and to be honest, I didn’t really like the way that they did the plot. I did however love the art style. It was really interesting and somewhat trippy.
That aside… there is something delicious about a selfish vengeance sometimes. All of us have faced problems or “enemies” that we wished we could retaliate against in such a complete and utterly destructive way that it’s like a vindication for us.
Or maybe I’m just a wishfully vindictive person. /sadface
“…there are so many more people who need to be killed.”
Best line ever.
*looks at current WIP and goes, well, there’s your problem–not enough carnage! Off to go get all stabby on someone’s ass…*
Seriously, though, when my last writing session turned out 2K words that were ALL motivation/introspection/crap, this all belongs in the backstory or the character bible, I realized the same thing: I need to better understand why this man is doing what he’s doing. It makes sense in my head…but not so much when set in black and white into Scrivener.
Thanks, Ilona, for the reminder to get further into their heads…
…and yeah, maybe a few more dead people wouldn’t hurt. LOL
I’d be more happy if Ilona’s conversation wasn’t making me rework my entire first chapter. But hey, its at least inspiration! (and it’s interesting having the main character have an argument with himself and losing).
I’m not sure if I really want Andrea back with Raphael. I think Curran’s right and he is spoiled and frankly a little loss is good for the soul. And a little bloodshed and some bright pink nail polish might be good for Andrea’s happiness. Be nice to see a book where the ending was all happiness and light and reflected some real life angst. Not every relationship is a HEA. Doesn’t mean that Andrea can’t kiss some major…uh…tail ends
Whatever, I’m sure it will be GREAT as always!
Sorry…WASN’T all happiness and light. Typo there. Oops.
Regarding Andrea, I agree with some of the previous commenters. I really like the idea of her character and I think that she works well as a supporting character and I’m interested in her interactions with other characters. But I’m not currently *that* enthused to see her as a lead.
But I’m sure that others are. And if this is where the bigger picture of the series needs to go then I’m happy to follow along and I’ll buy the book immediately anyway. I really enjoy the series so even if this isn’t my favorite installment then that’s fine. And maybe the book will be so great that I will like Andrea more after I’ve read it.
Meanwhile, this is my first ever comment here, so please let me thank llona and Gordon for all of their terrific work. I’ve thought that each book has been better than the last and it has been a pleasure to be able to read their work.
I have liked Andrea since she was first introduced. I like to think that since Andrea has left the order, she has been rediscovering herself and finding all those pieces of her personality that were put on a short leash and choke chain by the Order and her fight to keep her Bouda status hidden from everyone.
One of my favorite comments is when she tells Kate, “This is the hand that slapped Aunt B. Here, you can touch it, since you’re my best friend.” I liked Andrea’s short story in Must Love Hellhounds, so I am sure I will like Gunmetal Magic. Especially know that she is out of the Order and out of the shifter closet. Go Andrea!!
This just made my day – as I am reading this entry, guess what movie I am watching?
Oh yes – the Princess Bride
Have fun storming the castle!
Valerie: Do you think they’ll make it?
Miracle Max: Not a chance!
Best movie ever. and the book rocks too.
Miracle Max: Have fun storming the castle!
Valerie: Do you think they will make it?
Miracle Max: It would take a miracle.
Hate to nitpick but you have to get that line right it is one of the best ones in the movie.
Hee hee! I so enjoy these fun ruminations on character development and the joys of determining how to allow so-and-so to kill more nasties and still remain likeable and heroic (and maybe with some fun romance in there too….??) !!! Ah, the fun of urban fantasy. I can’t wait for more!!!
…and I second a previous comment: Go Andrea!!
Yay for the shout out to the anime, Gankuotsuou! (crazy art, crazy revenge
) Can’t wait for the book, thanks for the glimpse into the writing process!
Love Andrea as a character, loved her short story, and cannot wait to read this book!!!
I must be more shallow than I thought,,, I find the Andrea character to be well rounded, and interesting enough for her own series if you could find the time to write another one.
I’m not familiar w/ Gankutsuou, but does anyone remember Blake’s 7, that old British sci fi series? The ending was supposed to be “ambiguous,” but I’m pretty sure everyone died. I was so ticked that I had invested in the series and it ended like that. Boo.
On another note, I have a lot of respect for Anne (your editor). Although I’m a number-cruncher, I end up doing most of the writing for my organization. On occasion, I’m called upon to edit stuff other people (including people way senior to me) have produced. Boy howdy, that’s tough. I’d rather write something from scratch than edit someone else’s work.
So cool.. I really love watching Count of Monte Cristo! I will surely gonna have a great weekend..
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Nothing like ripping a few arms off to start your day. I find it most refereshing
I think you comments about making her a more well rounded character in her motivation is important.
Here are some random and rambling thoughts of mine, for whatever they are worth:
Her motivations in life to date appear to have been finding and keeping acceptance and safety. I also think that what makes Andrea such a great potential heroine is her empathy.
I think that if she feels that others are being exploited in the way that threatens those things: if their acceptance and their safety she would feel a lot of anger, empathy and a need to help them the away she tried to help herself and couldn’t (in relation to the Order).
But I agree that she can’t become vengeance in the Count of Montecristo way. He allowed vengeance to compromise his humanity and he had lost all empathy. He became a monster. Indigo didn’t lose his humanity and though he was a small part, he was still empathetic. That’s the key. Indigo wasn’t vengeance to the exclusion of all else. He was a person first, and he he had loyalties and friends and valued them, vengeance was a facet of him, but not the whole.
Ironically trying to fitting into The Order almost destroyed Angela’s humanity in the past. She allowed her desire for acceptance in The Order to override her empathy when the shapeshifter’s were under attack and Ted ordered her to stand down. And she did it. In trying to be more human, she almost lost her humanity.
What can’t happen in this book, in my opinion, is her losing her humanity to anything else, especially vengeance. And she needs to understand that humanity has nothing to do within having a purely human genome. Kate, for all her wacky non-human DNA is more human than anyone in the order. Because she went to help and always goes to help, regardless of who needs it. Just because you are a human doesn’t make you good, and just because you are a monster doesn’t mean you are bad. Andrea should, BY NOW, have an inkling of that.
What she needs to do in this book is understand that her humanity and empathy are worth more than vengeance (like the Count did at the end of his book), more than the need to fit in, more than the desire for safety. She also needs to accept herself . She has no self esteem except for in her shooting. She needs to get some. And if she realizes that her empathy and her humanity are important and rare, and learns to value those qualities in herself it might help her be more accepting of herself. Learning to love herself would also be an act of courage for her. And it would bring her out of the cowering in the closet.
The fact that her childhood tormentors were boudas is irrelevant. They would have been monsters regardless of their DNA. Pure humans could have done what they did too. And pure humans do horrible monstrous things (like in the last Kate book). Being a monster is a decision. It’s not DNA. And Andrea has to understand that the reason she isn’t a monster is because she’s decided not to be. And stop doubting that.
Until Andrea finds a way to accept herself, she’s never going to feel safe. Because she won’t ever be able to accept that anyone appreciates her until she appreciates herself.
Um. I should have edited that before I hit sent.
Send, I mean. It’s past time for bed, clearly. Sorry.